Ginny Kochis shares Strategies for how Catholic Moms can individualize their parenting approach for Neurodiverse kids

Ever feel like the typical parenting strategies don't work for your family?  Chances are good that you have at least one kid who is a little differently wired.

This wonderful interview with Ginny Kochis of Not So Formulaic is about embracing our kids' individuality and finding the tools we need to parent them for the way God made them.

Want to know more about Ginny's amazing resources?  Check them out here!.

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Let's do real life WITH our kids.  Want an age-by-age guide to practical life readiness? Grab it here.

Transcript

Kelsey

Ginny, thank you so much for joining us today. I am just absolutely delighted to have you here. And I think that other moms listening are going to really benefit from your wisdom and experience. I was wondering if, by way of introduction, you could just tell us a little bit about your story and how that has turned into a ministry for differently wired families?

Ginny Kochis

Sure, absolutely. First of all, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here as well. So, I have three children. My oldest is 16, then I have a 12 year old and an eight year old. And I'm, I think I sort of expected when I became a mom, for things to go a certain way. Because, you know, we were, I was, I went to Catholic school, you know, I was raised in the church, I went to Catholic University. And then, you know, my husband and I were Catholic, and we went to a, you know, a fairly, fairly large and devout Catholic parish. And so we saw that, you know, lots of families, and we sort of had this idea in our head of how this was supposed to go. And so we had our first who's now 16, our daughter, and she was, she was amazing, you know, she was this. She was an artist from a very early age. She started really at to drawing, you know, actual pictures of things. And then she is still an artist today. She's exceedingly talented, but she was also different. And but we didn't know what that meant. Exactly, because she was our first child. So we, you know, we sent her to preschool, she had some, some trouble in preschool. But she was, you know, she was meeting all of her developmental milestones. You know, we weren't concerned about anything, you know, related to that. In fact, she was ahead. I mean, she was reading, she was reading The Hobbit, by the time she went into kindergarten. You know, she had taught herself how to read. She

Kelsey

is very impressive.

Ginny Kochis

Well, she was a smart kid. But when we enrolled her in a Catholic school, for kindergarten, everything sort of fell apart. She was running from the classroom, she was hiding under the table, she was having arguments with the teacher. And it was just, you know, every day I was getting phone calls, you know, from the office, and I could hear her, you know, screaming, having meltdowns in the office, you know, in the background. And so we went through an evaluation process, and the whole thing was just kind of heart wrenching. And long story short, she was originally diagnosed as having Asperger's. They don't call it that anymore. So she's, I mean, she's autistic. She has, she has a little water, like a sticker on her water bottle that says actually autistic. She, she carries it proudly. But yeah, so we didn't know. I mean, that was that was hard. Because, you know, we'd go to church functions. And she would be, you know, running around the room and circles or spinning or, you know, and she could talk to people and she'd carry on conversations and you know, could look them in the eye and, you know, was, was communicative and all those things that you think an autistic child wouldn't be and yet, you know, she could not handle kind of the the sensory inputs of the classroom and all these different things. So then my, our second child came along, they're four years apart. And she developed anxiety, and was eventually diagnosed as having OCD. So and then, you know, our third actually just got the same exact diagnosis, our son has now been diagnosed with anxiety and OCD. So I think I felt like, you know, I would, I would be in mass, and we would have our, you know, just our three kids spaced four years apart. Some of them some of whom could not really handle being in mass for an extended period of time. You know, or who would just, you know, call out I remember once. Gosh, what did she do? In the middle of Christmas maths, it was Christmas Day maths. Thankfully, there weren't many people there. But our oldest was maybe eight, I think, and she just yelled out in the middle of the homily. She was like alligator, because, you know, she was just, she had the story in her head that she was telling, you know, but I like and I was constantly feeling like, you know, I'm not a good enough disciplinarian. You know, I'm not on top of these things. Maybe I need to teach them more about the virtues like what is going on? And then, you know, once we got the diagnosis, and I started doing, you know, more research on twice exceptionality, which is you know, children who are intellectually gifted and then have a developmental or learning disability. A lot of it started clicking into place, and I realized that I felt alone On. But that I wasn't that there were a lot of different families out there like ours. I just didn't know where they were. So I started writing about our experience, just to write about it, and then from that, started my blog, and then from the blog to the website, and then you know, the products and the services and all the things that I offer. So that's, I think how, you know, the ministry kind of took root is that I just, I had my own issues that I was trying to deal with. And then, you know, the more I started writing about it, the more people started reaching out to me and saying, hey, you know, this sounds exactly like what's going on with my, you know, my son, my daughter. So yeah, here we are. I think

Kelsey

you're right there is this like deep loneliness in the community of parents who are raising exceptional children? What kind of mindset shifts in your experience can help moms who feel like they're failing? Because their parenting ends up looking different? Because this is this is such a unique kind of way we have to parent when we have kids who are well unique.

Ginny Kochis

Yeah, no, that's true, I think. I think basically, you have to realize that people aren't looking at you, that really, nobody cares. And if they do you like, if they even have a thought, or they have an opinion, you know, that's, that's their issue, not mine. So I remember once, you know, I was feeling we used to, we did originally homeschool, we homeschooled for eight years, after kindergarten, I pulled my daughter out and decided to homeschool her. And so we homeschooled up through eighth grade, and I was involved in the homeschool community, in my parish, and there were so many huge families like 1012 kids, and I was like, I think that I would have a nervous breakdown if more than what I have. And I often felt like, awkward because we didn't fill up a pew, you know, I felt like maybe we weren't Catholic enough or whatever. And I actually once mentioned that to a friend of mine, who is the mother of 12 children. And she was like, you know, we don't know, you know, I have never, ever, ever looked at you and thought you don't have enough kids. You know, I'm too concerned about you know, which one of mine is crawling under the pew. Like, I'm not worried about that. And so that when she said that, it helps me realize what I said previously, which is that, you know, people aren't looking at me. You know, it's not that is my own, you know, my own fear and my insecurity that makes me think that people are judging me in my parenting. And on the occasions when I have had people outwardly judge or say something about my parenting, for instance, I was in Walmart once. With my middle child, she was two, yeah. And our oldest was in kindergarten. So our family was going through all of that. And my two year old had not yet been diagnosed for you know, because really, a diagnosis doesn't typically come. The earliest is, unless you do early intervention, for something serious, you probably wouldn't find out until around school age that her anxiety was already showing through. And we just didn't realize exactly what it was. But she was having this massive, massive meltdown in the middle of Walmart. It started because I wouldn't buy her this sparkly pink doggie purse that she wanted. And then it just you know it steamrolled from there, she just got totally caught up in herself. And this woman followed me around the store and accused me of abusing my daughter. She's kept saying to me, Why is she crying like that? Why is she calling for your husband? Because she knows my husband will buy her the purse? You know, you know, are you punching her, you have to be pitching her what is going on? You know, and I finally just said, Ma'am, I'm sorry, my daughter is having a meltdown. She's having you know, she's had, she's tired. She's not sleeping. My older daughter is having some issues at school. I this is just how things are. And then she, she followed me out to the parking lot. And then I saw and got on her cell phone. And I thought, Oh, my word this moment is calling the authorities. So I called my husband and he talked me down with the cliff. But I think after that I had to sit back, I spent a lot of time thinking about a lot of time writing about it. And I realized that, you know, that is there was something with her, something was going on with her that made her feel like she had to follow me around. So you know, if anybody ever says something to me about my parenting, or, you know, whatever, it's usually something that they've got on the inside, that they are dealing with. So I try really hard to remember, you know, a, that everybody's got something and B 90% of the time, things that people say, aren't really because of me anyway, it's just whatever they've got going on inside and then I just, you know, remove myself from the situation and then pray for them and move on. So, but it's taken a long time to get there. Like, you know, 17 years of parents. This is not this is not a thing that came to me like early on.

Kelsey

So right that's quite A difficult skill. I think I know I'm only about 10 years into parenting at this point, and definitely still in that. Oh, my goodness, Everyone's looking at me stage. Yeah. So that is it's true, though. I mean, that is really in a way very odd that someone would follow you around, too. I mean, who knows? That doesn't seem healthy.

Ginny Kochis

No, no, no. But I had to I think I, I had to really assume the best of her. Yeah, that was a hard lesson, too, is the idea that it's always it's always better to assume the best of someone, you just assume the best of intentions, like She probably thought that she was, you know, saving a child from a horrible situation. And you know, what? Godspeed lady

Kelsey

is also a good point. Yeah. Always better to charitable thoughts.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. So

Kelsey

can we talk a little bit too about? I know, for me as I have ADHD, and it's horrible, and I have children with ADHD, and one of the things I wanted to ask you about is, how do you handle all the, you know, just executive dysfunction? And like, you know, how there's always extra messes around, right? Because no one ever remembers to clean up the crafts that they so eagerly took out 20,000 pieces for? What are your thoughts on that?

Ginny Kochis

Um, well, it there's a couple of things. I think the first thing I had to do, I had to realize that, I mean, I have zero executive function. I don't like if I if I could pan out and show you what my office looks like, you would probably cry. But, um, or maybe I would just cry because but, um, yeah. But no, I think I had to hit a really lower my expectations. You know, I just had to be okay with a certain level of what's the word I'm looking for a certain level of mess, I guess, you know, disablement? I don't even think that's a word. But I had to be okay, with my house just being a little messy. You know, if your house is mostly clean, you know, and nobody's like catching botulism from stuff, they're taken out of the refrigerator. You know, I think you're probably fine. I mean, I understand. I know for me, like, there is a point where, like, the sub level, consistent mess can just get to me. And then I go through these like whirling dervish cleaning rages. So yeah, so I so I know that that is not always it's not a long term solution, it helps, but it's not a long term solution, I think, you know, the other thing that you can do is you can build executive function skills, they do not just magically develop over time, you know, it's not something that you really grow out of, you have to actually learn the different stages, you know, of executive function, because there's kind of a different ladder of skills, and each one builds on the one below it, or the one well, yeah, each one builds, yes, it goes up the ladder, basically. So there are ways that you can learn those skills. You know, and I've written extensively on my blog about that, and I have a couple of, you know, free and like paid resources that are there that people can use. But, you know, just practically, you know, or, from a practical standpoint, we have a lot of checklists, we have a lot of visual schedules, we have a lot of sticky note reminders. You know, you can take, you can get the kids involved, you know, but you have to practice kind of the tasks that you want them to do, because it has to become kind of like muscle memory, they have to get used to what they're supposed to do. So like, you know, on the back of our bathroom doors, we have a list of you know what to do, when you're cleaning the bathroom, you know, you it becomes like a matter of routine, so that you're not really spending as much time trying to find your stuff, because you've already just met you've like routinely just put it where it belongs, you know, because there's a mindset shift of just being okay with it. And then there's the practical side of, you know, setting yourself up for success, and learning the skills that you need in order to develop the kind of organization of your, your space, your heart, your head, all of that kind of stuff.

Kelsey

That's a true there's definitely both sides to that we have to have the growth mindset as well as just accepting the way things are right.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelsey

Now, one of the things I have noticed that you say is that parenting kids like this is sometimes just more than other things. What how do you prepare yourself like to have the energy you need? Because I think you're right, I think that word more is such a good descriptor for when you're raising differently wired kids.

Ginny Kochis

Sure. No, and I think it's doubly hard if you are are, you know, differently wired yourself? Because I am, you know, and I didn't really even know it. I've never had a formal diagnosis, but like raising my kids, I've realized, you know, yeah, I have sensory issues. Yes, I do have anxiety, you know, and I'm in treatment for anxiety, you know, yes, I do have, you know, some attention deficit kind of issues, I have hyperfocused, you know, all of those things. And I don't know that there's a way, you know, I think I just over the years I have set up, I don't want to call it an approach, because that's not really what it is, I know how things are gonna go, I have an idea of, you know, how my kids are going to react to certain situations, and then say, okay, you know, what are the things that I can do, I do actually really advocate for moms to have something of their own, that is just distinctly theirs. And I know that that kind of sometimes goes against what a lot of what a lot of people say, and what you know, some of the more like, traditional, I mean, I am a devout Catholic, but I think, you know, there's, there's kind of a, there's a side of things where people will say, you know, it's, it's you and your kids all the time, and when when you're raising kids like ours, it really can't be like, there needs to be some respite care. Because you, it's like that whole oxygen mask scenario, you know, in the airplane, where you can't, you know, they tell you to put it on yourself first before you help the kid with you. Um, and so I, you know, I have other hobbies, I have things that I do, I have a book club that I go to once a month, you know, and they're small, but it's important, you know, I take time for therapy, you know, I take time to meet with my psychiatrist, you know, all these little things that really support me in my efforts to support my kids. So, and then obviously, you know, my prayer time is, you know, hugely important. I don't have a lot of time, you know, to devote to prayer, because I, I mean, to, like sitting and just actively praying. So a lot of the prayer that I do is kind of on the go, but I recently not recently, but a year ago, I downloaded the Hello app. And that's been huge for me to help me, you know, listening to doing the like, co Divina. And then, you know, listening to the Divine Mercy Chaplet in the morning, while I'm making lunches, so that I'm not, you know, grumbling in my head about something that somebody didn't do or something that somebody is yelling about, you know, I'm instead I'm just the prayer is there and it's on in the background. So. Yeah, I mean, I hope that answered your question. I tend to ramble, right?

Kelsey

Yeah. No, I think you're completely right. I think that we have to have those things in our life so that we can show up as the really patient parents, we want to be right. And absolutely. I don't think that there's any anything. I've heard that kind of idea that, you know, I think that we as women and moms often struggle with doing anything that we tell ourselves might be selfish, but I don't think it's selfish. If it's purposeful. It's there because we do these things, because we want to do our job. Well, right. Yeah. So yeah, no, I think that's absolutely wonderful that you do all those things. Okay. I wanted to ask you, this one's really important. How do you approach faith formation differently than you expected? You would? And what kinds of strategies have really helped so this

Ginny Kochis

became an issue with my second child. She her anxiety was so bad that we had a really hard time with kind of I don't know if this is the right concupiscence is that the word that I'm looking for? Where she was like, consistently, just convinced that she would not be forgiven ever. Screw up the script velocity velocity, not concupiscence. Thank you. I was like, I can't think of the word.

Kelsey

I know what you're talking about. Yeah, she's

Ginny Kochis

incredibly scrupulous. And it was really hard. You know, I didn't, you know, with our oldest, she's like, her logical brain. She's just like, Yeah, okay, whatever, you know, I have to do this. So I will go and do it. And then with her sister, it was, there was a lot of a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety. A lot of there still is, you know, she's 12 now and it still takes a lot of a lot of prep, a lot of practice a lot of reassurance to get her to go to confession, and feel okay about it. Once she goes she always feels fine. But so we've had to there's a lot of things even reading scripture with her has been difficult because there are you know, the even stories like when Solomon and the the baby, you know, and they want to split the baby in half, like we had to censor all of that. You know, she would get really upset about the idea of all the people who were left behind in the flood, you know, lots of sensitivity. So I Um, we focus on, we focus on mercy a lot with her, we focus on Grace a lot with her a lot of the good things a lot the beauty, you know, like, she went on a field trip, we live up in the DC area, and she went on a field trip for a confirmation class to the Basilica. And I think that was perfect, because it's gorgeous, you know, and she was just able to kind of soak in all of the goodness and the beauty that was there. You know, and she doesn't have to, like, focus so much on me, she knows about the crucifixion, and she knows that it matters, but like for her to, to separate on that isn't healthy. So we have to keep that in mind. For my oldest, the, the logic brain, the logic part of her there is I forget the statistic. And they actually have a whole post on this about, you know, the truth about smart kids and faith. And that is, you know, kids who are or individuals who are intellectually gifted, tend to walk away from faith and religion at a rate much higher than your, like the neurotypical peers. So, with our oldest, we really had to, like, give her the why, you know, it couldn't just be like, This is what we believe it had to be, you know, this is what we believe. And here's the reasoning for it. So she's read through UKCAT, she's read a lot of, there's a theologian whose work she's read a lot of she, she's studied the Catechism. She's in a high school now, thankfully, at the Catholic high school that really is strong as far as the LG is concerned, and, and philosophy and ethics. So she's getting, you know, all of that, intellectually stimulating information that you know, so she can say, you know, she can say, I know that, you know, a lot of people would argue, XYZ. But here's why I say ABC, you know, and she can back it up with, you know, teachings from the church. And we're really lucky, you're not lucky, we're blessed in that sense. That, you know, as Catholics, we have this huge body of, like, why we do what we do, and it's not just oh, yeah, somebody decided, you know, whenever this year that we were going to do this thing. You know, we can go back to the source, we go back to Christ Himself, and trace it all the way back there. And everything, you know, everything kind of kind of pulls from that. So

Kelsey

I think that's so true. We don't yeah, the same, like conflict, too, between things like faith in science that you can often see, it's we are very intellectual as a religion.

Ginny Kochis

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's been helpful, too. You know, I think the the thing is you have to also, you do have to cultivate an appreciation for the mysterious, because there are some things that simply cannot be explained, obviously, you know, that's why we have, we have to take things on faith. But, you know, she, like Eucharistic miracles are really interesting to her, being able to see like, the scientific empirical evidence of Oh, my gosh, this is human. But it wasn't, I mean, it was bread, but now it's human. But it was bread, you know, like, but you can see, there's the science, you know, so those sorts of things have helped, I think. And then with my youngest keys, he's probably ADHD also. The eval, we got said they wanted, you know, they were like, Let's deal with the anxiety and the OCD first, and then we'll come back with the other stuff. But you know, with him, it's mostly just like, can you sit? Can you sit and listen and not complain about how boring This is? And we're getting there. So

Kelsey

yeah, I totally get that.

Ginny Kochis

Yeah. So the other thing I wanted to mention is that like, liturgical living looks really different for us. We don't you know, we're not doing these, like elaborate crafts or things or whatever. It's like,

Kelsey

Thank you for saying, yeah, no. Yeah, like I I completely agree. No, we pick and choose.

Ginny Kochis

Yeah, no, I mean, there's, there's really not. And I didn't even grow up with that. I mean, I'm probably dating myself. I mean, I was in Catholic school in the 80s. And that wasn't a thing, like liturgical living was not a thing. Like, we just didn't do it. But, you know, we always talked about the faith. You know, we had conversations about it around the dinner table. My mom was a convert, you know, and my dad was born in 1930. So he was pre Vatican to like, very, just very conservative. And I used to drive me to school in the mornings. And that was one of the best things ever was just having conversations with him about faith when I was in high school, you know, because he taught me so much about Catholicism. So, you know, I don't think liturgical living is nice. It's great. It's like a great addition. It's but it's like, you know, the frosting on the cake like, cake is still really good without the frosting. You know, you don't have to do all Have those things to be, you know, to be Catholic. So, anyway,

Kelsey

I think you're so right on that. It's, it's one of those things where I think a lot of people have similar stories, like they didn't grow up with as much of that. And it might be that it's become more popularized. Now, you know, in the age of social media. I mean, there are obviously traditions, and we have such a beautiful, liturgical, I've, you know, smorgasbord of options to pull from but yeah, you're right, we have to just cut down to the relationship we have with our kids is the core of it, and catechizing them in whatever way suits them the

Unknown Speaker

best. Yeah, absolutely.

Kelsey

So, last question I wanted to ask you, is, you often referenced St. xili, Martin, and I wanted to say, or seeing, how has she influenced you?

Ginny Kochis

Um, I think it was just really comforting to know that there was a saint who had her own struggles with anxiety and depression, who would, you know, would write things like, you know, I don't know how I'm gonna get through this day, I will probably be dead by five o'clock. I mean, I mean, that's one of my favorite quotes about her. I'm paraphrasing a lot, but are one of my favorite quotes from her. She was just real. She was a real person, and all the saints are real people. But I think sometimes, you know, you look at people like Mother Teresa, who just had this boundless energy of, like, Mercy. I don't, I don't know how to explain it, what I'm trying to say. But, you know, she just like Great Mother Teresa radiates calm and peace. And even though she was fighting that dark night of the soul, she still kept that, that presence about her, you know, and I get the sense that like, zayley, Martin was more like, this is hard. This is really hard. And I don't like it, you know, and she had these kids she had, who were just really difficult. I mean, she had Leone, who, you know, there's a lot of speculation that Leone was autistic. She had, you know, the little flower Torres, who would throw massive tantrums and throw her dumped self down the stairs. I mean, it's, it's like, it's a very human experience. You know, to know, her experience was very human. And I think that I don't even remember where I first heard about her. But when I did, and I had started reading about her, I was like, Oh, my gosh, this woman could be like, my twin. I mean, obviously not. I'm not as holy as she is, obviously. And I doubt I will ever be canonized. But I, there was a, there was a kinship there that I felt. And I, you know, reading her her letters that she shares between or there's the book of what am I trying to say? The letter she wrote back and forth. But that book is really good. Because it gives you a lot of insight and encouragement there. Yeah, so I mean, that's, that is kind of think why I feel drawn to her. I just feel like if anybody could have understood what I was going through, if anybody could have understand stood, you know, the day that I like, went into the bathroom downstairs and locked myself in there when my kids cried outside, it would be her. So yeah,

Kelsey

definitely makes it possible or feel possible for us to achieve sainthood on this roller coaster journey, doesn't she? She does. She does. Jenny, I wanted to give you a chance to talk about your programs, too. And I know you have the Z li society, is it? Yeah,

Ginny Kochis

I actually we there's been a little bit of reconstruction, or like restructuring, I guess I should say. So the zayley society, as it was, is basically been moved over to my Facebook group. So now it's all there. We do have a Facebook group. There's about to come couple $1,000 in there, which is really supportive. And it's, I like that it's a culture where everybody just sort of understands what it's like to raise these kids. So you're not, you're not going to come in contact with a lot of judgment, or like, why don't you just do XYZ? Well, because XYZ doesn't work, you know, you're not going to get that. And then I do have, I have a number of my blog, I have a ton of posts. It's just lots of free information. Parents and gifted kids parenting twice exceptional kids, parenting, different wired, kids faith formation. There's a lot on homeschooling up there too. And then for parents who send their kids to brick and mortar school like we do now. There's, you know, resources for you know how to handle all that with IEP s five A fours, that kind of thing. And then I have, I have some paid resources as well. I have a bunch of workbooks. I have a master note for kids. I have a growth mindset journal for kids. I have what else do I have on there? There's family toolkits to help with it. Anxiety. There's even, you know, like a marriage toolkit for parents of differently wired kids. I got masterclasses workshops. There's a ton out there. That's awesome. Yeah, thank you so

Kelsey

much for coming on today and sharing your experience your wisdom and just your heart for you this this is really a special mission, isn't it?

Ginny Kochis

Yeah, yeah, it is. And I forget that sometimes, you know, because I get just caught up in the, I think the the everydayness of it, you know, and I forget that this is like a vocation, but it is and so I appreciate you bringing me on here, you know, so I can get a chance to think of it from a different perspective than just like, This is what I'm doing every day.

Kelsey

Thank you so much for being here. And thank you so much for all the encouragement you give to all the moms out there. You're welcome.

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